BOB CARR on Diplomacy, Statesmanship and Grief

Even if you're not Australian, you want to listen to this conversation with one of the nation's most iconic statesmen.

Bob Carr is a former Foreign Minister of Australia (i.e. the Secretary of State) and, before that, the longest-continuously-serving Premier of NSW, Australia's most populous state. He's an intellectual powerhouse, an icolonoclast, a champion debater, a student of American history, of geopolitics and of diplomacy.

For the first portion of this conversation, he and Josh discuss Australian issues - nuclear submarines, his tenure as state leader. But the second half is a delightful rumination on power, Trump, the liberal world order, China, success, legacy, and grief.