Really value Sarah Wilson and her contribution to so many important conversations.
Her comment about "we are the adults born in this time" - I think about this a LOT through the lens of a) being a mental health practitioner with a focus on trauma and b) having teenagers.
So often what I observe in politics, on social media, in interpersonal relationships, in the media, in public discourse - is ADOLESCENT behaviour. The binary hysteria of cancel culture is the most adolescent response to being in disagreement with someone. The inability to take responsibility for your own feelings/actions/role is what teenagers are unable to do. The absence of thoughtful articulation that holds multiple truths- immature. I feel like at the critical point where we need SO MANY ADULTS to grapple with climate crisis, population decline, AI etc has bumped up against the same time that our culture is growing out of infancy in many issues of how we see and treat others - diversity in race, sexuality, gender, ability - and our response at the moment broadly speaking is in its teenage years, not an adult response yet. Does this make sense? I'm curious about others perspectives. Other adults! I wonder if the collective moral injury and trauma (using this word with caution) of the pandemic and impending climate collapse has frozen so many of us in a childlike/ adolescent state. And there is an urgent need to grow the hell up so we Can get on with the business of solving and mitigating so many pressing global challenges.
Great points Caitlin. With so many existential challenges (especially now brought to our minds with the 24/7 news-cycle) I observe two trends - people retreating into their safe space (home) and not talking about these pressing global issues - but only engage in small discussion - footy / the dogs / kids etc; and another group taking to the streets as the new protest groups. (I see far more than ever people reacting to development applications with venom), more violent protests etc. I think many (most?) people feel they have zero control over their lives
Hey Damon, I’d like to share your comment in my next post. I hope you are ok with this. I find the responses here from men so interesting. Much to say on it!
The overt misogyny here is WILD . I feel this thread perfectly illustrates the comment I was clumsily trying to make about adolescent responses in an adult world 🤦🏽♀️ I appreciate your adult, intelligent insights Sarah
I particularly love the comment from the dude who said he listened for a few minutes before making a public pronouncement about my intelligence. I just don't think these men realise they are a trope.
you don't detect blatant disdain/hatred of me and Hannah Ferguson? The suggestion that he might be "trapped" with us, that time in our company would be hell? He has not referenced our ideas...just our very being.
But that's not "misogyny". It theoretically could be, but since there are four billion women and only two of you, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the commenters, of whom you know only what they've put in these little comments, probably have more nuanced views of the other three billion and change.
In a world without any misogyny whatsoever, there would be at least as much hatred of individual women as there is of men, which trust me is a lot.
I'm not sure that's a helpful distinction, beyond the cerebral dance. i think when we observe a man make rash, extreme comments about someone they don't know, based on perhaps 5 minutes (at best) of listening to their ideas (in a very narrow, particular context) , it's not hatred of the individual. And when that same woman is lumped in with another woman...a picture forms...
An interesting opinion in individualism. I also wonder about Sarah's longtermist view on the world. In February 2020 we had long term views on careers and study, nicely laid out - and it was brutally crushed in March 2020 when the world was locked down. Now I follow the Spanish principle of 'Que sera, sera' and keep my car's fuel tank above half full.
Your observations on Aussies not wanting to engage in enthusiastic conversation (at least in the past) like Europeans and North Americans was my experience exactly when I moved here from Germany in the early nineties. No matter the topic I tried to have a conversation about - from politics to recycling - I was met with awkward silence, oh-well-waddya-gonna-do or yeah-nah-not-good-ey-did-you-watch-the-game-last-night. But the most infuriating sentence in this context by far (although not specifically directed at me) was: ‘If you haven’t got anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.’ Well, the ‘not so nice things’ can’t be avoided anymore now, can they?
I agree. The Brits like to sneer and have high-minded debates, Americans like a brawl, physical or verbal. Australians were really conflict-averse in my experience.
Elke, the Germans and the Dutch (and South Africans) are not known for subtly and nuance. They like facts and love drilling into other people's ears - it is not what you say, it is how you say things that matter
I’m always amazed when someone talks about a post-truth world and frames it in terms of one politician who is kind of an asshole and a bullshit artist (like virtually every other politician).
As opposed to a public health establishment that told us all to stay inside for our safety and then told us to go outside and protest one random police encounter in Minnesota, a media establishment that proudly told us that peaceful protests were going on while standing in front of a burning building, and an medical establishment that tells us that amputating healthy reproductive organs is livesaving medical care.
I don’t have any confidence in Trump to oppose the descent into Orwell we’re undergoing in America, but he is not and never has been the problem.
Goodness, lots of praise for France who certainly have large blind spots and many who permit no debate regarding controversial issues. And the sense of superiority here -- the dumb Brits and Americans who have the Groupthink -- Josh, you and some of your friends are in the bubble!
I think she is a bit thick. Some people you just learn from .. amazed by how they articulate themselves how they synthesise things. This one .. you gotta admire her self belief not much else.
Oh Cam. Do you ever allow yourself to learn from any woman? I get the feeling from the default response from a few of the men here that a bunch of you find this very difficult to do. Is it my "thickness" or is it your blockage?
It’s not just me Sarah. You’re missing the point. It’s a lot of good men. We are sick of it. And you perpetuate it. I heard you speak. I heard what you said. About men.
You gotta expect a bit of blow back if you want say such things publicly . And there is more coming. Men will start ‘ a movement’ soon. You’re all going too far. Declaring war on us.
Cosmopolitan .no thanks. There is the hypocrisy again.
But I’ll look into your other work. . Enjoy Paris.
I was a life long feminist. Not now. They current zeitgeist .. man bashing.. women are happier with out men.. men are unimportant as parents. It needs to stop.
Women use and abuse the family court and police system .. happy wife happy life has very sinister undertones.. and there is so much evidence that is not aired in today’s climate that ought to be. In the interests of balance fairness and better outcomes. I personally don’t think you want to ouss men off or disenfranchise them. A lot of us are sick if it.
We find many women hypocritical.. unaccountable. ( I have a theory.. it’s not feminism rather masculinism. Women swearing drinking argueing aggressive. Especially I Australia. Give me a European woman any day.
I am sure you are a lovely person . I admire that you are living your best life. But I didn’t find any original thinking from you. Your well read.. reciting others findings. But you’re no expert. Some people just reek of expertise knowledge learning and smarts . You don’t I am sorry
Yo Cam! You are very much entitled to your take on feminism and where masculinity and femininity is at. I struggle too. Can I invite you to perhaps keep your comments in these kinds of forums and at such a delicate time in history to facts and not attacks on character or the person. You obviously take yourself to be less thick than me, despite your writing and grammar skills. If this is so, I am sure you are capable of seeing that a smart dude has not need to sledge a woman he doesn't know. I also invite you to read my work. I'm guessing you have not. It's good to be informed before putting an opinion out there. Just an invite...
Totally an unoriginal thinly. Inarticulate. Self centred even. Another man basher.. the veneer is thin. Men are redundant. Do not poke the bear. Men have had enough. Good men.
Wow… I don’t think I’ve ever come across someone who interprets the concept of Individualism like she does. It’s at least incredibly interesting 😅 I think what she’s referring to as Individualism could better be described as elite greed or cronyism
Really value Sarah Wilson and her contribution to so many important conversations.
Her comment about "we are the adults born in this time" - I think about this a LOT through the lens of a) being a mental health practitioner with a focus on trauma and b) having teenagers.
So often what I observe in politics, on social media, in interpersonal relationships, in the media, in public discourse - is ADOLESCENT behaviour. The binary hysteria of cancel culture is the most adolescent response to being in disagreement with someone. The inability to take responsibility for your own feelings/actions/role is what teenagers are unable to do. The absence of thoughtful articulation that holds multiple truths- immature. I feel like at the critical point where we need SO MANY ADULTS to grapple with climate crisis, population decline, AI etc has bumped up against the same time that our culture is growing out of infancy in many issues of how we see and treat others - diversity in race, sexuality, gender, ability - and our response at the moment broadly speaking is in its teenage years, not an adult response yet. Does this make sense? I'm curious about others perspectives. Other adults! I wonder if the collective moral injury and trauma (using this word with caution) of the pandemic and impending climate collapse has frozen so many of us in a childlike/ adolescent state. And there is an urgent need to grow the hell up so we Can get on with the business of solving and mitigating so many pressing global challenges.
Great points Caitlin. With so many existential challenges (especially now brought to our minds with the 24/7 news-cycle) I observe two trends - people retreating into their safe space (home) and not talking about these pressing global issues - but only engage in small discussion - footy / the dogs / kids etc; and another group taking to the streets as the new protest groups. (I see far more than ever people reacting to development applications with venom), more violent protests etc. I think many (most?) people feel they have zero control over their lives
Also thanks for this conversation and all the uncomfortable conversations you engage in, on the edge of those fragile branches.
I didn't last very far in to this. I think Sarah is not very bright.
Good to know, John
Ok, i give up. Too many dubious unsubstantiated claims.
“Hyperindividualism has…turned wokeism into a tribal groupthink movement”
Not the first time i’ve heard a lefty blaming meanies on the other side for the trainwrecks their movements become, but this is especially silly.
It must be great to be Sarah Wilson, knowing that you have the perfect view on every subject. Men are terrible.
My idea of hell is being trapped in a room with this woman and Hannah Ferguson.
Hey Damon, I’d like to share your comment in my next post. I hope you are ok with this. I find the responses here from men so interesting. Much to say on it!
The overt misogyny here is WILD . I feel this thread perfectly illustrates the comment I was clumsily trying to make about adolescent responses in an adult world 🤦🏽♀️ I appreciate your adult, intelligent insights Sarah
And thanks for your support.
I particularly love the comment from the dude who said he listened for a few minutes before making a public pronouncement about my intelligence. I just don't think these men realise they are a trope.
Men's fragile egos so often get centred as the Most Important Thing to protect 😩
There is literally nothing that could reasonably be construed as misogynistic here.
Even if you disagree with it. This kind of framing is unhelpful and immature.
you don't detect blatant disdain/hatred of me and Hannah Ferguson? The suggestion that he might be "trapped" with us, that time in our company would be hell? He has not referenced our ideas...just our very being.
But that's not "misogyny". It theoretically could be, but since there are four billion women and only two of you, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the commenters, of whom you know only what they've put in these little comments, probably have more nuanced views of the other three billion and change.
In a world without any misogyny whatsoever, there would be at least as much hatred of individual women as there is of men, which trust me is a lot.
And, really, it's "misogynistic enough" to be simply read as tedious, reactive and small.
I'm not sure that's a helpful distinction, beyond the cerebral dance. i think when we observe a man make rash, extreme comments about someone they don't know, based on perhaps 5 minutes (at best) of listening to their ideas (in a very narrow, particular context) , it's not hatred of the individual. And when that same woman is lumped in with another woman...a picture forms...
An interesting opinion in individualism. I also wonder about Sarah's longtermist view on the world. In February 2020 we had long term views on careers and study, nicely laid out - and it was brutally crushed in March 2020 when the world was locked down. Now I follow the Spanish principle of 'Que sera, sera' and keep my car's fuel tank above half full.
Your observations on Aussies not wanting to engage in enthusiastic conversation (at least in the past) like Europeans and North Americans was my experience exactly when I moved here from Germany in the early nineties. No matter the topic I tried to have a conversation about - from politics to recycling - I was met with awkward silence, oh-well-waddya-gonna-do or yeah-nah-not-good-ey-did-you-watch-the-game-last-night. But the most infuriating sentence in this context by far (although not specifically directed at me) was: ‘If you haven’t got anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.’ Well, the ‘not so nice things’ can’t be avoided anymore now, can they?
I agree. The Brits like to sneer and have high-minded debates, Americans like a brawl, physical or verbal. Australians were really conflict-averse in my experience.
Elke, the Germans and the Dutch (and South Africans) are not known for subtly and nuance. They like facts and love drilling into other people's ears - it is not what you say, it is how you say things that matter
Oh boy is she absolutely full of it.
I’m always amazed when someone talks about a post-truth world and frames it in terms of one politician who is kind of an asshole and a bullshit artist (like virtually every other politician).
As opposed to a public health establishment that told us all to stay inside for our safety and then told us to go outside and protest one random police encounter in Minnesota, a media establishment that proudly told us that peaceful protests were going on while standing in front of a burning building, and an medical establishment that tells us that amputating healthy reproductive organs is livesaving medical care.
I don’t have any confidence in Trump to oppose the descent into Orwell we’re undergoing in America, but he is not and never has been the problem.
Goodness, lots of praise for France who certainly have large blind spots and many who permit no debate regarding controversial issues. And the sense of superiority here -- the dumb Brits and Americans who have the Groupthink -- Josh, you and some of your friends are in the bubble!
Thoroughly enjoyed this open and energetic crossover. Thank you Josh and Sarah; we need more friendly yet challenging discussions such as this.
I think she is a bit thick. Some people you just learn from .. amazed by how they articulate themselves how they synthesise things. This one .. you gotta admire her self belief not much else.
Oh Cam. Do you ever allow yourself to learn from any woman? I get the feeling from the default response from a few of the men here that a bunch of you find this very difficult to do. Is it my "thickness" or is it your blockage?
It’s not just me Sarah. You’re missing the point. It’s a lot of good men. We are sick of it. And you perpetuate it. I heard you speak. I heard what you said. About men.
You gotta expect a bit of blow back if you want say such things publicly . And there is more coming. Men will start ‘ a movement’ soon. You’re all going too far. Declaring war on us.
Cosmopolitan .no thanks. There is the hypocrisy again.
But I’ll look into your other work. . Enjoy Paris.
I get the feeling you been faking it all your life. A cuckoo of sorts.
Did you mean too?? This point in history?
Why bring up a dude sledging a women?Not playing that card are you? A person sledging a person
Enjoy modernity. It’s terrible what men have built isn’t it.
Hi Sarah
I was a life long feminist. Not now. They current zeitgeist .. man bashing.. women are happier with out men.. men are unimportant as parents. It needs to stop.
Women use and abuse the family court and police system .. happy wife happy life has very sinister undertones.. and there is so much evidence that is not aired in today’s climate that ought to be. In the interests of balance fairness and better outcomes. I personally don’t think you want to ouss men off or disenfranchise them. A lot of us are sick if it.
We find many women hypocritical.. unaccountable. ( I have a theory.. it’s not feminism rather masculinism. Women swearing drinking argueing aggressive. Especially I Australia. Give me a European woman any day.
I am sure you are a lovely person . I admire that you are living your best life. But I didn’t find any original thinking from you. Your well read.. reciting others findings. But you’re no expert. Some people just reek of expertise knowledge learning and smarts . You don’t I am sorry
Yo Cam! You are very much entitled to your take on feminism and where masculinity and femininity is at. I struggle too. Can I invite you to perhaps keep your comments in these kinds of forums and at such a delicate time in history to facts and not attacks on character or the person. You obviously take yourself to be less thick than me, despite your writing and grammar skills. If this is so, I am sure you are capable of seeing that a smart dude has not need to sledge a woman he doesn't know. I also invite you to read my work. I'm guessing you have not. It's good to be informed before putting an opinion out there. Just an invite...
Totally an unoriginal thinly. Inarticulate. Self centred even. Another man basher.. the veneer is thin. Men are redundant. Do not poke the bear. Men have had enough. Good men.
Great conversation! Thanks Josh.
Wow… I don’t think I’ve ever come across someone who interprets the concept of Individualism like she does. It’s at least incredibly interesting 😅 I think what she’s referring to as Individualism could better be described as elite greed or cronyism