I am a huge fan of Josh and enjoyed this pod. But it is beyond me why smart people listen to Batya Ungar-Sargon. The idea that Trump is the patron saint of the working class is beyond idiotic. I am glad Josh pushed back against her stupidity. I now wish the Free Press would drop her like a hot potato.
The fact that she was the "best, most articulate pro-Trump voice" to be found says pretty much all you need to know about the Trump movement. I wasn't familiar with Batya Ungar-Sargon before this conversation, but yikes! Is she more thoughtful, better informed, and more nuanced in her writing? Was she just being a troll by claiming Democrats are bad at losing while Republicans do so gracefully? By claiming that Trump is "much more focused now....you can see it in his cabinet picks?" By talking about how low-wage workers have been held hostage to Democratic policies while ignoring minimum wage laws and anti-union efforts in Republican-led states?
I appreciate Josh having on a pro-Trump voice, and I appreciate that he balanced calling out her BS occasionally while still giving her the time and space to try to make her points. She's clearly media savvy in terms of throwing out lots of claims and statistics in a format where she knows she can't be effectively fact-checked or rebutted (a classic "flood the zone with shit" Bannon-ite). That being said, I was disappointed with Josh's praise of her in the introduction to the episode. It felt way too close to both-sides-ism and being deferential for the sake of civility. Framed another way, she was treated like the "diversity hires" that both the MAGA and heterodox movements claim to find unacceptable. To pretend that she was articulate, thoughtful, or constructive in espousing her viewpoints is to succumb to the bigotry of low expectations.
Josh should continue to have pro-Trump voices on, along with other voices he disagrees with – as he said at the beginning, that's the whole conceit of Uncomfortable Conversations. But it does a disservice to listeners to pretend in the introduction that she was anything other than nonsensical. Next time, I'd encourage Josh to just let someone like her stand on the strengths, or lack thereof, that they demonstrate in conversation. No need to falsely praise her.
I truly don’t mean this to sound as dickish as it probably sounds, but I really, truly, earnestly do not understand why anyone feels that Batya Ungar-Sargon is someone worth printing or broadcasting to the public. (Not a criticism of Josh btw; she’s all over podcasts and writes for the Free Press and so on—I just don’t get why.) She combines a tendency to be either hyperbolic or just flat wrong on the facts with a weirdly idealized, noble-savage-like view of the American working class. This isn’t a recipe for deep insight into actual real-world American politics, in my view. It’s just disorienting.
I’ve heard she’s quite a nice person, and I’m sure that’s true, but that’s not really a reason to care about her opinion on H1-B visas or whatever else. Maybe I’m the one missing something, but when I listen to her it always leaves me feeling baffled and vaguely depressed.
My dream podcast would take a conversation like this one and allow someone who has read her books to systematically debunk her argument. Every podcast shoots across the bow of every other opposing podcast without thoroughly clapping back each point. She presents the steel industry and her single precious example; Josh presents washer/dryers as his counter but each has only one example. There's a landslide of evidence that the wealth gap has widened, and even if it didn't build it's greatest momentum until the orangutan left office, he still helped further the Bush era's off shoring of billions in capital and millions of jobs that Americans will never see again. This makes me want to scream, when we credit one politician for the good or evil generated by his predecessor. And she is a dolt if she thinks the pre-COVID prosperity was something Trump facilitated. He was riding the Obama wave! And he'll ride the good generated by the Biden Administration claiming it for himself.
This is accurate. She made used a couple of cherry-picked metrics like the increase in wages of the bottom 20% of Americans in 2019. But attributing it to Trump is crazy.
The wage inflation in this group comes primarily from the fact that unemployment had been at record lows for years. This meant that companies had to pay more for unskilled labor. This was coupled with several states raising the minimum wage.
How can anyone assume what Trump says is what he means, and more so what he will do when he has CLEARLY illustrated his ACTIONS, are regularly in contradiction of the same. Even the American judiciary has confirmed the same through multiple decisions.
And to make this assumption in the light of this evidence, when his actions have further turned against the people who believed him the first time, is mind-boggling.
Is Elon right calling them “retarded?”
How does a self-respecting woman support a rapist, or an immigrant, a person color, or a member out of the LGBTQ, support a person who through his actions has his historically attacked them and their families.
The problem with this conversation is the debate here shouldn’t be about what he says he’s going to do but what he has done and his failing to operate with integrity in the interest of the American people. That’s the conversation that should be debated, if at all, in is much as any US citizen feels their moral centre and ethical guidelines should be available for debate.
did she ever answer a single questions directly? let me know what i missed so i can check my bias here but it to me things started ok but halfway through a flip switched and she suddenly seemed determined to be a propaganda mouth piece rather than getting down to the nitty gritty of policy or even just a nuanced general political philosophy discussion
Batts is a smart woman, but speaks with apparent authority in areas she is not an expert. Knowing enough to form an opinion and not enough to know your opinion is wrong, is the critical failure of both the more extreme voices on both the Right and the Left.
Batya makes Trump sound like a deep and nuanced thinker and problem solver (who happens to be a billionaire, but so what?) when one only has to listen to one of his unintelligible, vulgar speeches to understand that the opposite is true. The mind keeps on boggling…
Okay, time for an #UnpopularOpinion: I thought it was a great listen, and I'm really glad that Josh invited Batya to share her perspective.
She addressed issues that resonate with many people in the US. The promise of free trade was supposed to create pathways to higher-paying jobs, particularly in fields like STEM. However, the US has managed to promote free trade while giving many of those new jobs to H1B visa holders. It's no surprise that this situation has generated significant frustration. It's perfectly valid for people to wish they could have retained their decent-paying jobs. I found her arguments about the dignity of work to be genuine.
While I can't definitively assess the validity of everything she said, she was accurate in noting that income inequality in the US modestly declined between 2016 and 2019.
I found her point about Trump recognizing this unmet need in the electorate intriguing. Isn't this the same flawed system that Bernie was trying to challenge, only to face opposition from the Democrats? I wonder if people's reactions to her arguments would differ if she were linking them to Bernie instead of someone about whom many, including myself, have serious reservations.
Thank you, Josh, for introducing me to a perspective I might not have considered otherwise.
We could’ve had Bernie Sanders in 2016… Instead we get this douche bag. Could have been fighting for actual human rights and dignity, instead fighting for regressive economic goals of “maybe we manufacture some more stuff in the US again”. Truly pathetic that this is the vision of the right, and equally pathetic of the left to keep anointing centrist politicians who don’t even come close to meeting the moment we’re in.
I am a huge fan of Josh and enjoyed this pod. But it is beyond me why smart people listen to Batya Ungar-Sargon. The idea that Trump is the patron saint of the working class is beyond idiotic. I am glad Josh pushed back against her stupidity. I now wish the Free Press would drop her like a hot potato.
The fact that she was the "best, most articulate pro-Trump voice" to be found says pretty much all you need to know about the Trump movement. I wasn't familiar with Batya Ungar-Sargon before this conversation, but yikes! Is she more thoughtful, better informed, and more nuanced in her writing? Was she just being a troll by claiming Democrats are bad at losing while Republicans do so gracefully? By claiming that Trump is "much more focused now....you can see it in his cabinet picks?" By talking about how low-wage workers have been held hostage to Democratic policies while ignoring minimum wage laws and anti-union efforts in Republican-led states?
I appreciate Josh having on a pro-Trump voice, and I appreciate that he balanced calling out her BS occasionally while still giving her the time and space to try to make her points. She's clearly media savvy in terms of throwing out lots of claims and statistics in a format where she knows she can't be effectively fact-checked or rebutted (a classic "flood the zone with shit" Bannon-ite). That being said, I was disappointed with Josh's praise of her in the introduction to the episode. It felt way too close to both-sides-ism and being deferential for the sake of civility. Framed another way, she was treated like the "diversity hires" that both the MAGA and heterodox movements claim to find unacceptable. To pretend that she was articulate, thoughtful, or constructive in espousing her viewpoints is to succumb to the bigotry of low expectations.
Josh should continue to have pro-Trump voices on, along with other voices he disagrees with – as he said at the beginning, that's the whole conceit of Uncomfortable Conversations. But it does a disservice to listeners to pretend in the introduction that she was anything other than nonsensical. Next time, I'd encourage Josh to just let someone like her stand on the strengths, or lack thereof, that they demonstrate in conversation. No need to falsely praise her.
yes to all of this
I truly don’t mean this to sound as dickish as it probably sounds, but I really, truly, earnestly do not understand why anyone feels that Batya Ungar-Sargon is someone worth printing or broadcasting to the public. (Not a criticism of Josh btw; she’s all over podcasts and writes for the Free Press and so on—I just don’t get why.) She combines a tendency to be either hyperbolic or just flat wrong on the facts with a weirdly idealized, noble-savage-like view of the American working class. This isn’t a recipe for deep insight into actual real-world American politics, in my view. It’s just disorienting.
I’ve heard she’s quite a nice person, and I’m sure that’s true, but that’s not really a reason to care about her opinion on H1-B visas or whatever else. Maybe I’m the one missing something, but when I listen to her it always leaves me feeling baffled and vaguely depressed.
Sounds like she's on the verge of joining Loomer in a revolt. I'm not sure I want her to switch sides, however.
My dream podcast would take a conversation like this one and allow someone who has read her books to systematically debunk her argument. Every podcast shoots across the bow of every other opposing podcast without thoroughly clapping back each point. She presents the steel industry and her single precious example; Josh presents washer/dryers as his counter but each has only one example. There's a landslide of evidence that the wealth gap has widened, and even if it didn't build it's greatest momentum until the orangutan left office, he still helped further the Bush era's off shoring of billions in capital and millions of jobs that Americans will never see again. This makes me want to scream, when we credit one politician for the good or evil generated by his predecessor. And she is a dolt if she thinks the pre-COVID prosperity was something Trump facilitated. He was riding the Obama wave! And he'll ride the good generated by the Biden Administration claiming it for himself.
This is accurate. She made used a couple of cherry-picked metrics like the increase in wages of the bottom 20% of Americans in 2019. But attributing it to Trump is crazy.
The wage inflation in this group comes primarily from the fact that unemployment had been at record lows for years. This meant that companies had to pay more for unskilled labor. This was coupled with several states raising the minimum wage.
How can anyone assume what Trump says is what he means, and more so what he will do when he has CLEARLY illustrated his ACTIONS, are regularly in contradiction of the same. Even the American judiciary has confirmed the same through multiple decisions.
And to make this assumption in the light of this evidence, when his actions have further turned against the people who believed him the first time, is mind-boggling.
Is Elon right calling them “retarded?”
How does a self-respecting woman support a rapist, or an immigrant, a person color, or a member out of the LGBTQ, support a person who through his actions has his historically attacked them and their families.
The problem with this conversation is the debate here shouldn’t be about what he says he’s going to do but what he has done and his failing to operate with integrity in the interest of the American people. That’s the conversation that should be debated, if at all, in is much as any US citizen feels their moral centre and ethical guidelines should be available for debate.
She said so many things that made me gasp. 'Republicans are good loosers' almost made me scream.
Cudos to you, josh, for being so calm and collected.
did she ever answer a single questions directly? let me know what i missed so i can check my bias here but it to me things started ok but halfway through a flip switched and she suddenly seemed determined to be a propaganda mouth piece rather than getting down to the nitty gritty of policy or even just a nuanced general political philosophy discussion
Batts is a smart woman, but speaks with apparent authority in areas she is not an expert. Knowing enough to form an opinion and not enough to know your opinion is wrong, is the critical failure of both the more extreme voices on both the Right and the Left.
Batya makes Trump sound like a deep and nuanced thinker and problem solver (who happens to be a billionaire, but so what?) when one only has to listen to one of his unintelligible, vulgar speeches to understand that the opposite is true. The mind keeps on boggling…
Okay, time for an #UnpopularOpinion: I thought it was a great listen, and I'm really glad that Josh invited Batya to share her perspective.
She addressed issues that resonate with many people in the US. The promise of free trade was supposed to create pathways to higher-paying jobs, particularly in fields like STEM. However, the US has managed to promote free trade while giving many of those new jobs to H1B visa holders. It's no surprise that this situation has generated significant frustration. It's perfectly valid for people to wish they could have retained their decent-paying jobs. I found her arguments about the dignity of work to be genuine.
While I can't definitively assess the validity of everything she said, she was accurate in noting that income inequality in the US modestly declined between 2016 and 2019.
https://www.reuters.com/article/business/us-income-inequality-narrowed-slightly-over-last-three-years-fed-idUSKBN26J2LT/
I found her point about Trump recognizing this unmet need in the electorate intriguing. Isn't this the same flawed system that Bernie was trying to challenge, only to face opposition from the Democrats? I wonder if people's reactions to her arguments would differ if she were linking them to Bernie instead of someone about whom many, including myself, have serious reservations.
Thank you, Josh, for introducing me to a perspective I might not have considered otherwise.
We could’ve had Bernie Sanders in 2016… Instead we get this douche bag. Could have been fighting for actual human rights and dignity, instead fighting for regressive economic goals of “maybe we manufacture some more stuff in the US again”. Truly pathetic that this is the vision of the right, and equally pathetic of the left to keep anointing centrist politicians who don’t even come close to meeting the moment we’re in.
Whenever someone says “well actually” they are going to say something widely out of context at best and a complete lie at worst.
Sounded like a union worker of the 80s.