Josh I love your work and I understand that these Just Joshes are for wrestling with ideas and noodling about, but I feel the need to push back on a couple of points, as a citizen of the UK.
Yes Alistair Campbell's tweet tagging in the Met is outrageously 1984ish and the UK's laws on incitement of hatred (as opposed to violence) and our 'public order offences' are dangerously close to the kinds of laws on the books in the P.R.C. At times, it seems that 'being an arsehole' is a crime. Take this, for example, from the Guardian in 2023.
"A football supporter who mocked Sunderland fans with a photograph of mascot Bradley Lowery, who died from cancer aged six, has been given a suspended sentence as the judge described his actions as 'utterly appalling' and 'disgraceful'. Dale Houghton, 32, taunted Sunderland fans with a picture of Lowery on his phone during a match against Sheffield Wednesday at Hillsborough Stadium in September. The Sheffield Wednesday supporter admitted a public order offence at a previous hearing. On Friday, Houghton, from Rotherham, was given a 12-week prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, and ordered to do 200 hours unpaid work by the district judge Marcus Waite."
On a related note, our libel laws are also notoriously terrible.
That said, you seem to think that immigration is a forbidden topic in the UK. Let me assure you it has not. The press are obsessed by it and have been since for years, 'stop the boats' was one of the Conservative Party's campaign promises in the run up to the last general election, a plan to send some failed asylum seekers to Rwanda dominated the final months of Rishi Sunak's time as prime minster, and a recent home secretary, Suella Braverman, made a speech while in office last year saying that "multiculturalism has failed".
Closer to home for you, Douglas Murray's book The Strange Death of Europe was reviewed in The Evening Standard, The Daily Telegraph, The Times, The Sunday Times, and Literary Review. Michael Gove, who was a key player in the succession of Tory governments from 2010 to 2024, also reviewed it. In short, Douglas Murray is not currently a British version of Benny Lai or Alexey Navalny. You are absolutely right to call out Alistair Campbell for acting as if he should be, but at present he is not.
A person can certainly take issue with:
a) the incompetence of politicians who want to reduce inward migration but seem to be unable to
b) politicians who disingenuously say they want to but actually don't - maybe because immigration keeps our fragile social care system just about functioning, for instance
c) politicians who think high levels of inward migration are beneficial or necessary but lack the courage to argue for it and instead denounce anyone with a glimmer of concern as a bigot
d) politicians who have cut public investment and services to the bone while also promoting high levels of immigration as if everything will just work itself out
e) a combination of the above
There have also been horrendous cases in which political correctness has led to people in power turning a blind eye from evil crimes (like the Rotherham and Rochdale child sexual abuse cases), but these have been uncovered, reported on, subject to special investigations, and ultimately resulted in jail time for the perpetrators. This has been far from perfect and took too long, but if we really couldn't bring it up without being locked up I don't think any of these things would have happened.
So discussion of migration or multiculturalism is not verboten in the UK. Similarly, I think the suggestion that there are villages entirely populated by Polish migrants is far fetched. More broadly, your image of the results of migration is far from uncontested. The Economist, not a known bastion of wokeness, featured an article in March this year which is well-worth reading. Its title is "Without realising it, Britain has become a nation of immigrants. Another surprise: it's very good at assimilating people".
As for the recent riots, I absolutely agree that incitement of hatred is a slippery notion that shouldn't be on the statute books. But I feel that your podcast skimmed over the nuance of incitement to violence. During a period of civil unrest in which a mob attempted to burn down a hotel housing asylum seekers, is somebody writing 'burn down the mosques' or something similar on social media inciting violence by your metric? They aren't saying 'let's meet at 3pm and burn down a mosque' but I'm not sure it's just being offensive either.
Anyway, to avoid a book length comment I'll stop now. Hopefully this is food for thought.
I haven’t watched Q&A for some time but I used to listen to I Patricia Karvelas every morning on Radio National, I often felt like she was pushing her agenda and had a certain smugness that she held the moral high ground. I personally found it grating compared to previous hosts of the slot. I wonder, is the goal on program like Q&A to have an even handed moderator or is that just wishful thinking? Or is it more engaging/ good for ratings if the moderator has a particular position on issues?
I just watched it and recommend others to watch it, some good conversation where I found all the guests made good points and were respectful to each other.
I would say that all hosts (in fact a good portion of society) push their agenda, while also holding their views so confidently that it appears to be smugness. Look at me, I just did it in response to you just doing it. Josh’s interviews do not seem much different to Patricia’s but that is my take on it and each to their own.
Josh, I’m a big fan of your work, so it is with nothing but love and respect that I say: I think your understandably angry rebuke to Alastair Campbell—and specifically the bit about the death toll in Iraq—is a bit of rather cheap rhetoric, or borderline demagoguery, even. You know as well as anyone that saying “you were partially responsible for x”, where x is a grave error with grim consequences, but one that happened two decades ago now, is not an answer to things said or done in the present. Campbell is who he is, and his record is his record, but you still have to make arguments.
I wonder if you’ve tried to get him on the show? Because I don’t mind admitting I listen to him and Rory Stewart every week, and while I plenty of time disagreeing, I get enough out of it that I’m still listening. He seems like an extremely busy person, but maybe he’d do it? He loves Australia, that much I know for sure. (They had an hourlong interview with Peter Malinauskas, whom you surely know, just a week or two ago, on their interview show “Leading”.)
I would love to hear you press him on these points and see if he has any good counterarguments. He and Rory Stewart are clearly far more sanguine about the migration stuff you’re discussing here than you or Douglas Murray are, so it would be a worthy discussion to have, and an even worthier one to share with the world!
The little bit in here on government run healthcare is chilling. Imagine being able to afford a $20k procedure that has the potential to save the life of your partner/parent/child but being unable to because somewhere in a board room a group of people have decided it’s not worth it. Frightening.
Josh I love your work and I understand that these Just Joshes are for wrestling with ideas and noodling about, but I feel the need to push back on a couple of points, as a citizen of the UK.
Yes Alistair Campbell's tweet tagging in the Met is outrageously 1984ish and the UK's laws on incitement of hatred (as opposed to violence) and our 'public order offences' are dangerously close to the kinds of laws on the books in the P.R.C. At times, it seems that 'being an arsehole' is a crime. Take this, for example, from the Guardian in 2023.
"A football supporter who mocked Sunderland fans with a photograph of mascot Bradley Lowery, who died from cancer aged six, has been given a suspended sentence as the judge described his actions as 'utterly appalling' and 'disgraceful'. Dale Houghton, 32, taunted Sunderland fans with a picture of Lowery on his phone during a match against Sheffield Wednesday at Hillsborough Stadium in September. The Sheffield Wednesday supporter admitted a public order offence at a previous hearing. On Friday, Houghton, from Rotherham, was given a 12-week prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, and ordered to do 200 hours unpaid work by the district judge Marcus Waite."
On a related note, our libel laws are also notoriously terrible.
That said, you seem to think that immigration is a forbidden topic in the UK. Let me assure you it has not. The press are obsessed by it and have been since for years, 'stop the boats' was one of the Conservative Party's campaign promises in the run up to the last general election, a plan to send some failed asylum seekers to Rwanda dominated the final months of Rishi Sunak's time as prime minster, and a recent home secretary, Suella Braverman, made a speech while in office last year saying that "multiculturalism has failed".
Closer to home for you, Douglas Murray's book The Strange Death of Europe was reviewed in The Evening Standard, The Daily Telegraph, The Times, The Sunday Times, and Literary Review. Michael Gove, who was a key player in the succession of Tory governments from 2010 to 2024, also reviewed it. In short, Douglas Murray is not currently a British version of Benny Lai or Alexey Navalny. You are absolutely right to call out Alistair Campbell for acting as if he should be, but at present he is not.
A person can certainly take issue with:
a) the incompetence of politicians who want to reduce inward migration but seem to be unable to
b) politicians who disingenuously say they want to but actually don't - maybe because immigration keeps our fragile social care system just about functioning, for instance
c) politicians who think high levels of inward migration are beneficial or necessary but lack the courage to argue for it and instead denounce anyone with a glimmer of concern as a bigot
d) politicians who have cut public investment and services to the bone while also promoting high levels of immigration as if everything will just work itself out
e) a combination of the above
There have also been horrendous cases in which political correctness has led to people in power turning a blind eye from evil crimes (like the Rotherham and Rochdale child sexual abuse cases), but these have been uncovered, reported on, subject to special investigations, and ultimately resulted in jail time for the perpetrators. This has been far from perfect and took too long, but if we really couldn't bring it up without being locked up I don't think any of these things would have happened.
So discussion of migration or multiculturalism is not verboten in the UK. Similarly, I think the suggestion that there are villages entirely populated by Polish migrants is far fetched. More broadly, your image of the results of migration is far from uncontested. The Economist, not a known bastion of wokeness, featured an article in March this year which is well-worth reading. Its title is "Without realising it, Britain has become a nation of immigrants. Another surprise: it's very good at assimilating people".
As for the recent riots, I absolutely agree that incitement of hatred is a slippery notion that shouldn't be on the statute books. But I feel that your podcast skimmed over the nuance of incitement to violence. During a period of civil unrest in which a mob attempted to burn down a hotel housing asylum seekers, is somebody writing 'burn down the mosques' or something similar on social media inciting violence by your metric? They aren't saying 'let's meet at 3pm and burn down a mosque' but I'm not sure it's just being offensive either.
Anyway, to avoid a book length comment I'll stop now. Hopefully this is food for thought.
Keep up the good work!
Minute 19 of Q&A and Josh is interrupted in the most obnoxious way by Karvelas.
Was she actually listening to what he was saying?
Josh was a great as usual and I am always impressed how he stays so calm in such circumstances.
I haven’t watched Q&A for some time but I used to listen to I Patricia Karvelas every morning on Radio National, I often felt like she was pushing her agenda and had a certain smugness that she held the moral high ground. I personally found it grating compared to previous hosts of the slot. I wonder, is the goal on program like Q&A to have an even handed moderator or is that just wishful thinking? Or is it more engaging/ good for ratings if the moderator has a particular position on issues?
I just watched it and recommend others to watch it, some good conversation where I found all the guests made good points and were respectful to each other.
I would say that all hosts (in fact a good portion of society) push their agenda, while also holding their views so confidently that it appears to be smugness. Look at me, I just did it in response to you just doing it. Josh’s interviews do not seem much different to Patricia’s but that is my take on it and each to their own.
Josh, I’m a big fan of your work, so it is with nothing but love and respect that I say: I think your understandably angry rebuke to Alastair Campbell—and specifically the bit about the death toll in Iraq—is a bit of rather cheap rhetoric, or borderline demagoguery, even. You know as well as anyone that saying “you were partially responsible for x”, where x is a grave error with grim consequences, but one that happened two decades ago now, is not an answer to things said or done in the present. Campbell is who he is, and his record is his record, but you still have to make arguments.
I wonder if you’ve tried to get him on the show? Because I don’t mind admitting I listen to him and Rory Stewart every week, and while I plenty of time disagreeing, I get enough out of it that I’m still listening. He seems like an extremely busy person, but maybe he’d do it? He loves Australia, that much I know for sure. (They had an hourlong interview with Peter Malinauskas, whom you surely know, just a week or two ago, on their interview show “Leading”.)
I would love to hear you press him on these points and see if he has any good counterarguments. He and Rory Stewart are clearly far more sanguine about the migration stuff you’re discussing here than you or Douglas Murray are, so it would be a worthy discussion to have, and an even worthier one to share with the world!
Great article! Well done
The little bit in here on government run healthcare is chilling. Imagine being able to afford a $20k procedure that has the potential to save the life of your partner/parent/child but being unable to because somewhere in a board room a group of people have decided it’s not worth it. Frightening.
Looking very dapper on Q and A young Mr Szeps!