Your comments today, for me, clarified your meaning. It’s always difficult to walk the nuanced balanced pathway. I think possibly where you went wrong - was the “abandon Israel” at the end. Nothing you wrote leading up to that really justified that conclusion. It was a bit click-baity.
I agree, the whole rest of the article made so much sense to me but that last sentence stood out like a sore thumb, which is no doubt why they made it the basis for the headline. Josh said that if you read the whole thing that it is obvious that he meant that diaspora Jews should stop reflexively defending everything that Israel does, but unfortunately it is a little ambiguous and you can read whatever you want into it.
It’s leftist doctrine, Josh is walking towards the centre, but it doesn’t exist. There is right and wrong. If all the lefties disparaged Hamas maybe they would stop; blaming Israel for Hamas brutally, even ignoring their brutality to their own people. Ignoring the evidence that they rely on the death and destruction of their own people to survive is aiding and being complicit with Barbarism and allows them to continue. Double standards are accepted; never mind the picture just paint a narrative. Jewish is God the Torah and the nation of Israel. Sure your mother is Jewish, you’re Jewish. Jewish grandchildren is the continuation of Judaism, that’s why Hamas and Palestinians kill Jewish babies mercilessly. Left loves Hamas hates Jews the rest is rationalisation.
Definitely agree with this. Surprised and a little dissappointed with that phrase. What wasn’t surprising was motivated people latching onto that bit and getting their chew on.
I agree with all your comments defending yourself against the critics. But I’m disappointed that you didn’t address my criticism ( the first to be published actually, in the Sunday Age). Unfortunately I can’t copy it into this comment but it argued simply that we should not abandon Israel, but rather support all the sources of dissent and protest there so as to defeat Netanyahu.
Surely they deserve that, and that is the way, difficult though it be, to ‘reclaim the moral mantle of Judaism’. So I disagree strongly with your conclusion, or your wording of it..
I say this as a great and continuing supporter of all you do in Uncomfortable Conversations
The drama-voice that Josh puts on when reading his critics is off-putting. Just read it and don’t editorialise, I don’t need to be told that critique is unwelcome by using a sing song tone
Josh, I thought that your editorial was thoughtful and worth discussing. I agree with your other commenters above that you carried your observations to an unwarranted conclusion, that we should “abandon Israel “. I was quite surprised when you reached that far. Why abandon all of Israel? If you remain a Zionist as you say, why not just find fault with some of Israel’s (or Netanyahu’s) policies. I fear that you are encouraging the Jew and Israel haters more than you intended.
Josh I carefully listened to this episode to give you the opportunity to explain your position. With great respect, where your position fails is in the very title of the article that uses the words "dump Israel". There is a LOT to what you name something, despite all the explanations. In a world of clickbait, a hoard of people didn't get past the title as you would well know, and your otherwise, reasonably balanced approach was taken as just more grist for the antisemitic mill. And that my friend, was the point your dad's old mate was making... something that seems to have been lost on you. Your article, though well intentioned, gave endless joy and support to a certain rabble that hates Jews and wants them gone. Do better old mate.
Usually I’m able to follow Josh’s reasoning clearly. Not the case on this occasion.
Just spoke to my friend in Tel Aviv last night. She can’t stand Netanyahu. But her country is the only home she knows. She can’t abandon Israel. Why should she?
Josh... as a non-Jew I both sympathise but disagree. My friend ChatGPT tells me there are 2.0 billion Muslims and 15 million Jews. That is, 15 Muslims for every Jew. (Correction - pre-coffee math - it is 1 Jew for every 133.3 Muslims - a tiny community). Since I can remember, the average kind, friendly, invite you to a dinner Muslim I met silently hated the Jews. I worked in Lagos (Nigeria), and my Muslim driver (we were obliged to have drivers) refused to take me to a restaurant owned by a Jew - stating 'they are filthy and thieves'. In the Middle East and Africa - people have no respect for a 'soft' leader - Israel cannot be soft
Not sure Andre, I am not familiar with your location, but if your neighbours teach their children to hate you, and that their way to salvation is by killing you, and to top it - your neighbour's tribe has its sole reason of existence to wipe you from the face of the earth - I doubt it if taking them cup cakes will lengthen your life
Sorry for the late reply. I get your point. The children of said neighbours might look around and think, well this is a bit over the top. As they are being killed. Pretty sure nothing ever changes hatred by being shot at. And seeing completely innocent people being killed all around you. Yes what happened in Israel deserved a strong response. But this is just ridiculous. And all the while playing on the guilt feelings of the world. Pure cynical politics at gunpoint.
At the height of the ground war in Gaza, the IDF deployed around 30,000–40,000 troops inside the territory—equivalent to roughly 20+ brigades. In a war with this many combatants you can expect to find a few rogue elements who end up committing war crimes But you wouldn’t use that the paint the whole outfit as rogue, would you?
By way of comparison at its peak, Australia deployed approximately 1,550 ADF personnel in Afghanistan around mid-2009. We have at least one soldier to be found guilty of war crimes. But we don’t hold all of them to the same description.
From my information the IDF are a far more morally standing army than you give them credit for. Please show me how and where I might have gone wrong with this assessment.
PS - I am fan from your ABC days and enjoy your podcasts.
Sup Josh. I know it must be impossibly difficult but try and pull a Sam Harris and ignore the hate/noise. Your article was great! threaded the needled. I dont need to hear you defend it against sloppy criticisms. Keep up the good work and never shut up!
Except you got the Sam Harris reference backwards. Sam speaks up against the extremist islamic propaganda. Try interviewing Douglas Murray, a historian who actually visits conflict areas.
I’m not sure Sam Harris is a great model for Josh. Sam claims he ignores his critics and has a zen like detachment and self awareness, but to me he comes across as thin skinned. I also wish Josh wouldn’t borrow Sam’s hyperbolic language like “Death Cult” maybe it’s accurate but it reads as unserious and childish to me.
Yeah, I'm just not on the same page as you on Gaza, Josh. You specifically said "I truly believe that it is *implausible* that Israel is the moral actor in Gaza at the moment". So what's this talk about hoping for a wide spread of Jewish opinion, when you clearly hold that the opinion opposing your own is *implausible*?
Josh is surprised that his proposal that Jews should be cast aside, for their claimed unique sins, was not received well. It's morally perverse to evoke the memory of your grandparents as a redoubt in your direct call to abandon Jews again.
The only thing that really endangers Jews if your brand of enlightened centrist sophistry and reputation laundering ie: Candence Owens, Clementine Ford. Modern leftist Jews have mistaken Tikkun Olam, a part, and made it a suicidal whole.
The head spinning you're suffering from stems from the inability to reconcile reality with progressivism. The tension between how you want to the world to be as opposed to how it is. You raised that the Arab states twice invaded, both times lost and now complain that they live in the wake of their failure? And what of Oslo and every other peace process? Not everyone gets a state, especially those that refuse to partake in its own creation every single time.
Besides the rusted on and worn-out call to "be kind" what should Israel actually do? It looks like as of the last few days they are actually doing it, which is geopolitics to your student politics.
More ‘Just Josh’ please. You very often speak far more sense than the people you interview. I think most of your paid subscribers pay to hear your take on things… I certainly do, more please
Josh, I’m a fan from ABC days and now your podcast. I feel there are important gaps in your argument.
No mention of the plight of the Mizrahi Jews. If Palestinians want to inject the principle of the “right of return” because it is a principle to be am applied when addressing the problem of displaced peoples it must be applied to them too. Do you agree? Of course the likelihood of that even being on the table is near zero.
You avoid mentioning the Hamas Charter which, as you know, effectively means wiping Israel of the map. When they say “from the river to the sea” they mean that literally. There is no nuance in what they tell us. Do you accept that?
Do you really believe that the Palestinian issue is about land? There is too much in the sacred texts that extreme Islamists use to fuel and justify their cause to deny that and conclude it is a global caliphate that is the goal. Look at what is happening in many liberal democracies today to realise that “global intifada” has probably started.
You avoid challenging labels like “colonisers”. There is any amount of undisputed evidence that Jews originated from the Levant. How can you possibly use the term coloniser when people are returning to their ancestral homeland after centuries of displacement and persistent persecution?
Hamas have promised to repeat Oct 7 as often as necessary to achieve their goals. Israel can either defend their legal right to exist or run away - your suggestion. Don’t you think running away will provide enormous lift to their global validate mm caliphate objective? This is apart from the view that evil wins over good (as faked as it might be).
With the exception of the coloniser point I'm not sure Josh would disagree with anything you've said here. I think the simple moral truth that is at the core of his article (I don't see how this could be disagreed with, honestly) is that you are not justified to do whatever you want to a group of people even though they include (however large a percentage) those who are categorically evil and are actively seeking the destruction of your state. It's not a sufficient answer to the question of whether Netanyahu's war is just - brutally executed, way too little regard for civilians caught in the crossfire, and no reasonable achievable goal - to say that Israel is also at the sharp end of a great deal of injustice.
I make a clear distinction between Israel and its people and the ruling government of the day and its policies. You can be supportive of the one and highly critical of the other at the same time - just like we can in Australia or any other democracy.
Your comments today, for me, clarified your meaning. It’s always difficult to walk the nuanced balanced pathway. I think possibly where you went wrong - was the “abandon Israel” at the end. Nothing you wrote leading up to that really justified that conclusion. It was a bit click-baity.
I agree, the whole rest of the article made so much sense to me but that last sentence stood out like a sore thumb, which is no doubt why they made it the basis for the headline. Josh said that if you read the whole thing that it is obvious that he meant that diaspora Jews should stop reflexively defending everything that Israel does, but unfortunately it is a little ambiguous and you can read whatever you want into it.
Yeah I’m surprised by that phrasing. Pretty uncharacteristic for Josh, unnecessarily inflammatory imo
It’s leftist doctrine, Josh is walking towards the centre, but it doesn’t exist. There is right and wrong. If all the lefties disparaged Hamas maybe they would stop; blaming Israel for Hamas brutally, even ignoring their brutality to their own people. Ignoring the evidence that they rely on the death and destruction of their own people to survive is aiding and being complicit with Barbarism and allows them to continue. Double standards are accepted; never mind the picture just paint a narrative. Jewish is God the Torah and the nation of Israel. Sure your mother is Jewish, you’re Jewish. Jewish grandchildren is the continuation of Judaism, that’s why Hamas and Palestinians kill Jewish babies mercilessly. Left loves Hamas hates Jews the rest is rationalisation.
100% agree.
Precisely this👍
Definitely agree with this. Surprised and a little dissappointed with that phrase. What wasn’t surprising was motivated people latching onto that bit and getting their chew on.
I agree with all your comments defending yourself against the critics. But I’m disappointed that you didn’t address my criticism ( the first to be published actually, in the Sunday Age). Unfortunately I can’t copy it into this comment but it argued simply that we should not abandon Israel, but rather support all the sources of dissent and protest there so as to defeat Netanyahu.
Surely they deserve that, and that is the way, difficult though it be, to ‘reclaim the moral mantle of Judaism’. So I disagree strongly with your conclusion, or your wording of it..
I say this as a great and continuing supporter of all you do in Uncomfortable Conversations
Michael Liffman
The drama-voice that Josh puts on when reading his critics is off-putting. Just read it and don’t editorialise, I don’t need to be told that critique is unwelcome by using a sing song tone
Normal inflection with his interviews , Josh’s intent was clearly explicit
Josh, I thought that your editorial was thoughtful and worth discussing. I agree with your other commenters above that you carried your observations to an unwarranted conclusion, that we should “abandon Israel “. I was quite surprised when you reached that far. Why abandon all of Israel? If you remain a Zionist as you say, why not just find fault with some of Israel’s (or Netanyahu’s) policies. I fear that you are encouraging the Jew and Israel haters more than you intended.
Josh I carefully listened to this episode to give you the opportunity to explain your position. With great respect, where your position fails is in the very title of the article that uses the words "dump Israel". There is a LOT to what you name something, despite all the explanations. In a world of clickbait, a hoard of people didn't get past the title as you would well know, and your otherwise, reasonably balanced approach was taken as just more grist for the antisemitic mill. And that my friend, was the point your dad's old mate was making... something that seems to have been lost on you. Your article, though well intentioned, gave endless joy and support to a certain rabble that hates Jews and wants them gone. Do better old mate.
Usually I’m able to follow Josh’s reasoning clearly. Not the case on this occasion.
Just spoke to my friend in Tel Aviv last night. She can’t stand Netanyahu. But her country is the only home she knows. She can’t abandon Israel. Why should she?
Josh... as a non-Jew I both sympathise but disagree. My friend ChatGPT tells me there are 2.0 billion Muslims and 15 million Jews. That is, 15 Muslims for every Jew. (Correction - pre-coffee math - it is 1 Jew for every 133.3 Muslims - a tiny community). Since I can remember, the average kind, friendly, invite you to a dinner Muslim I met silently hated the Jews. I worked in Lagos (Nigeria), and my Muslim driver (we were obliged to have drivers) refused to take me to a restaurant owned by a Jew - stating 'they are filthy and thieves'. In the Middle East and Africa - people have no respect for a 'soft' leader - Israel cannot be soft
Not sure of your maths.
You are correct - my maths were shoddy - pre-coffee, it should be 1 Jew for every 133.3 Muslims -
The total obliteration of a slab of land and its inhabitants seems a little over the top though wouldn’t you agree?
Not sure Andre, I am not familiar with your location, but if your neighbours teach their children to hate you, and that their way to salvation is by killing you, and to top it - your neighbour's tribe has its sole reason of existence to wipe you from the face of the earth - I doubt it if taking them cup cakes will lengthen your life
Sorry for the late reply. I get your point. The children of said neighbours might look around and think, well this is a bit over the top. As they are being killed. Pretty sure nothing ever changes hatred by being shot at. And seeing completely innocent people being killed all around you. Yes what happened in Israel deserved a strong response. But this is just ridiculous. And all the while playing on the guilt feelings of the world. Pure cynical politics at gunpoint.
Which slab?
I’ve followed a similar arc with Israel. It’s become tiring trying to defend it
At the height of the ground war in Gaza, the IDF deployed around 30,000–40,000 troops inside the territory—equivalent to roughly 20+ brigades. In a war with this many combatants you can expect to find a few rogue elements who end up committing war crimes But you wouldn’t use that the paint the whole outfit as rogue, would you?
By way of comparison at its peak, Australia deployed approximately 1,550 ADF personnel in Afghanistan around mid-2009. We have at least one soldier to be found guilty of war crimes. But we don’t hold all of them to the same description.
From my information the IDF are a far more morally standing army than you give them credit for. Please show me how and where I might have gone wrong with this assessment.
PS - I am fan from your ABC days and enjoy your podcasts.
Bring on John Spencer or Andrew Fox to talk about the particulars of how the war is being waged, Josh.
You still need to talk to Haviv, Josh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKoUC0m1U9E
Sup Josh. I know it must be impossibly difficult but try and pull a Sam Harris and ignore the hate/noise. Your article was great! threaded the needled. I dont need to hear you defend it against sloppy criticisms. Keep up the good work and never shut up!
Except you got the Sam Harris reference backwards. Sam speaks up against the extremist islamic propaganda. Try interviewing Douglas Murray, a historian who actually visits conflict areas.
No I didnt. JH got it. Sam ignores criticism for the most part and focuses on dropping some knowledge like you pointed out.
except not a historian
I’m not sure Sam Harris is a great model for Josh. Sam claims he ignores his critics and has a zen like detachment and self awareness, but to me he comes across as thin skinned. I also wish Josh wouldn’t borrow Sam’s hyperbolic language like “Death Cult” maybe it’s accurate but it reads as unserious and childish to me.
Yeah, I'm just not on the same page as you on Gaza, Josh. You specifically said "I truly believe that it is *implausible* that Israel is the moral actor in Gaza at the moment". So what's this talk about hoping for a wide spread of Jewish opinion, when you clearly hold that the opinion opposing your own is *implausible*?
Josh is surprised that his proposal that Jews should be cast aside, for their claimed unique sins, was not received well. It's morally perverse to evoke the memory of your grandparents as a redoubt in your direct call to abandon Jews again.
The only thing that really endangers Jews if your brand of enlightened centrist sophistry and reputation laundering ie: Candence Owens, Clementine Ford. Modern leftist Jews have mistaken Tikkun Olam, a part, and made it a suicidal whole.
The head spinning you're suffering from stems from the inability to reconcile reality with progressivism. The tension between how you want to the world to be as opposed to how it is. You raised that the Arab states twice invaded, both times lost and now complain that they live in the wake of their failure? And what of Oslo and every other peace process? Not everyone gets a state, especially those that refuse to partake in its own creation every single time.
Besides the rusted on and worn-out call to "be kind" what should Israel actually do? It looks like as of the last few days they are actually doing it, which is geopolitics to your student politics.
The enlightened centrist unicorn, the mythical place between two viewpoints, does not exist, https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/18ymnt2/could_you_at_least_meet_him_half_way/
More ‘Just Josh’ please. You very often speak far more sense than the people you interview. I think most of your paid subscribers pay to hear your take on things… I certainly do, more please
Josh, I’m a fan from ABC days and now your podcast. I feel there are important gaps in your argument.
No mention of the plight of the Mizrahi Jews. If Palestinians want to inject the principle of the “right of return” because it is a principle to be am applied when addressing the problem of displaced peoples it must be applied to them too. Do you agree? Of course the likelihood of that even being on the table is near zero.
You avoid mentioning the Hamas Charter which, as you know, effectively means wiping Israel of the map. When they say “from the river to the sea” they mean that literally. There is no nuance in what they tell us. Do you accept that?
Do you really believe that the Palestinian issue is about land? There is too much in the sacred texts that extreme Islamists use to fuel and justify their cause to deny that and conclude it is a global caliphate that is the goal. Look at what is happening in many liberal democracies today to realise that “global intifada” has probably started.
You avoid challenging labels like “colonisers”. There is any amount of undisputed evidence that Jews originated from the Levant. How can you possibly use the term coloniser when people are returning to their ancestral homeland after centuries of displacement and persistent persecution?
Hamas have promised to repeat Oct 7 as often as necessary to achieve their goals. Israel can either defend their legal right to exist or run away - your suggestion. Don’t you think running away will provide enormous lift to their global validate mm caliphate objective? This is apart from the view that evil wins over good (as faked as it might be).
Let me leave it here (for now 😊).
With the exception of the coloniser point I'm not sure Josh would disagree with anything you've said here. I think the simple moral truth that is at the core of his article (I don't see how this could be disagreed with, honestly) is that you are not justified to do whatever you want to a group of people even though they include (however large a percentage) those who are categorically evil and are actively seeking the destruction of your state. It's not a sufficient answer to the question of whether Netanyahu's war is just - brutally executed, way too little regard for civilians caught in the crossfire, and no reasonable achievable goal - to say that Israel is also at the sharp end of a great deal of injustice.
I make a clear distinction between Israel and its people and the ruling government of the day and its policies. You can be supportive of the one and highly critical of the other at the same time - just like we can in Australia or any other democracy.
I look forward to reading Josh’s response.