Agree with the criticisms of Snow White and also in treading carefully concerning hate speech laws that stifle freedom of speech.
But let’s be clear, none of this (restrictions of freedom of speech) was necessary for Disney shitting out Snow White - they’ve voluntarily gone down this path the last 5-10 years. The movie was clearly written at the behest of a mishmash of focus groups, and was self censoring in the way of modern Hollywood.
No one is forcing Disney to be this way, hopefully the market gives them the feedback (low box office sales) and they are forced to catch up, course correct, and we can look back on this period 10 years from now as deeply embarrassing and perplexing. I think this might be one of the last dying gasps of the ‘woke’ films emblematic of the late 2010s, but we shall see.
Interesting. What makes these issues so tricky is that it’s far easier to articulate the case ‘for’ protection from insult than the case ‘against’.
Somewhat related story from this very morning: my 9yo did a class presentation in which students stood out the front of the school assembly identified as either ‘neurotypical’ or something else (by the way, she was one of only two neurotypicals, which guess makes her atypical?)
I was speaking with my partner afterwards about why i found the spectacle gross and weird and ultimately damaging to the kids. I think i was able to articulate my case but it wasn’t easy.
At the same time, the counter-arguments (what’s the harm?, it helps kids appreciate difference, reduction of stigma, etc) are almost too easy to make.
Why has multiculturalism led to the de-throning of Australian culture? What happened to assimilation and fitting in? Most people who come to Australia do genuinely want to fit in and contribute to our democratic, freedom-loving, caring, tolerant, stoic, patriotic, hard-working and fun-loving culture. Unfortunately, some who come to Australia want to change all that because their culture is completely at odds with ours. When we are prevented from having a conversation about the conflict of cultures we are somehow perceived as flouting the god of "multiculturalism". Now hate-speech laws lock in those unresolved differences so they will fester and become toxic. The problem is obvious to most Australians but seemingly not to some politicians.
Sorry Josh, but I just don't care anymore. Judging art as "Woke" or "Not Woke" is just as brain-dead as the position you're criticizing. The new snow white is probably bad, I haven't seen it and probably won't, but it's not just because it is too "woke". The way to get Disney (and others... Marvel looking at you) to fix making terrible movies is to just stop buying tickets to them. No matter how bourgeois leftist you think they are over there, nothing is ultimately more important to a company than the dollar.
Wokeness doesn't inherently destroy art. It's possible they could have made a thoughtful and engaging movie with no dwarfs or cgi dwarfs or dwarfs in the wrong places or girl boss-ness or whatever else people are complaining about. That they didn't I reflects more on the fear of taking risks than the inherent badness of wokeness or changing art for changing times. We all look back at blackface and cringe, but it was incredibly common and accepted for a long time. For god's sake they're just remaking one of their own films, if that doesn't smack of crass commercialism and fear of taking risks I don't know what does.
I don't really know enough about Australian speech laws. I probably wouldn't agree with them the way you describe them, but I get you're coming from a biased position so I won't comment much on that part.
I suspect you're understandably triggered by the word “woke”, (which is only in the episode title, not the editorial itself). You say "wokeness doesn't inherently destroy art". But if you replace "wokeness" in that sentence with "groupthink", "McCarthyism", "thought policing" or "witch hunting", it falls over. The fear of offending any dogma impedes art.
Thanks for the response. I don't in general disagree with you. I'm against dogma in its' many forms including the examples you give. I think I'm coming at this from the perspective of the opposite political problem as an American. We're full into the pendulum swing of the backlash to what you seem to be dealing with in Australia, and it's not any prettier on this side. I'm constantly listening to people see something as simple as a woman or minority main character and writing the whole thing off as "woke" and therefor bad.
You're probably right as to my "triggering" on the term woke, but I think it's justified as maybe it's not a fair critique of you, but definitely is of the general public who in my opinion see these overreaches on the left and swing to worshiping the dishonest grifter fucks like Christopher Rufo and their like as if their brand of identity politics is better and not worse.
It occurred to me for a split second while listening to this hilarious Disney takedown that it gives a little too much credit to the 1937 version, which itself was heavily sanitised for family audiences…But I was too busy laughing and appreciating the general point. Great examples cited here on the difficulty of answering the Minns question.
Is that "sanitised" allegation justified by any evidence? Snow White and other Disney movies were intended for children in the interwar years when people wanted beautiful, happy, escapist and magical stories that gave children something to feel good about and believe in.
I was thinking of the stark differences between the German fairy tale and Disney's 1937 Snow White. One could argue though that: (1) that the process of "sanitisation" (in particular, removing violent elements) began long before Walt Disney and even dates back to the Grimm brothers own self-editing; (2) that clearly these modifications were warranted for a film produced in the 1930s for, as you say, a family audience; (3) Walt Disney's inspiration for the 1937 film was primarily from a silent a silent film produced in 1916 and this version had already eliminated violent elements. So, I suppose, understandably sanitised. Good point.
Ugh, this reminds me of what they did to the number "America" in the West Side Story remake. As you'll recall, the original song is a back-and-forth between Anita and Bernardo, with Bernard praising Puerto Rico over the US, and Anita shitting on PR in favor of America. She gets the line, "Puerto Rico, my heart's devotion, let it sink back in the ocean."
In the remake, Anita's lyrics have been santized to "Puerto Rico, you lovely island", which completely undercuts the point of the whole song. It satisifies the current need to validate people from that US territory, though, which to some is the priority. I myself think the original is hilarious, and that Anita and Bernardo both make good points about their respective homes, original and new, but gods forbid I should form my own opinion.
Agree with the criticisms of Snow White and also in treading carefully concerning hate speech laws that stifle freedom of speech.
But let’s be clear, none of this (restrictions of freedom of speech) was necessary for Disney shitting out Snow White - they’ve voluntarily gone down this path the last 5-10 years. The movie was clearly written at the behest of a mishmash of focus groups, and was self censoring in the way of modern Hollywood.
No one is forcing Disney to be this way, hopefully the market gives them the feedback (low box office sales) and they are forced to catch up, course correct, and we can look back on this period 10 years from now as deeply embarrassing and perplexing. I think this might be one of the last dying gasps of the ‘woke’ films emblematic of the late 2010s, but we shall see.
Well said. It’s not racist or homophobic to leave widely loved works within their source material, ie - fantasy worlds.
To do otherwise is to imply that Disney or Tolkien were racist when they wrote their classics decades ago.
This is hardly different than Trump wanting to makeover US History by editing the Smithsonian. It’s all wrong.
Peak Josh
Please tell me this will be included on Rotten Tomatoes’ reviews of the film.
Anyway, brilliantly stated, and your rundown of the film’s various politically correct mishaps genuinely made me laugh.
Josh on fire! Love it.
Josh that was just brilliant! Thanks. That was so true and honest. I am certain you speak for the great majority of Australians.
Brilliant
Interesting. What makes these issues so tricky is that it’s far easier to articulate the case ‘for’ protection from insult than the case ‘against’.
Somewhat related story from this very morning: my 9yo did a class presentation in which students stood out the front of the school assembly identified as either ‘neurotypical’ or something else (by the way, she was one of only two neurotypicals, which guess makes her atypical?)
I was speaking with my partner afterwards about why i found the spectacle gross and weird and ultimately damaging to the kids. I think i was able to articulate my case but it wasn’t easy.
At the same time, the counter-arguments (what’s the harm?, it helps kids appreciate difference, reduction of stigma, etc) are almost too easy to make.
They have not really nailed a single Disney live action
Why has multiculturalism led to the de-throning of Australian culture? What happened to assimilation and fitting in? Most people who come to Australia do genuinely want to fit in and contribute to our democratic, freedom-loving, caring, tolerant, stoic, patriotic, hard-working and fun-loving culture. Unfortunately, some who come to Australia want to change all that because their culture is completely at odds with ours. When we are prevented from having a conversation about the conflict of cultures we are somehow perceived as flouting the god of "multiculturalism". Now hate-speech laws lock in those unresolved differences so they will fester and become toxic. The problem is obvious to most Australians but seemingly not to some politicians.
Sorry Josh, but I just don't care anymore. Judging art as "Woke" or "Not Woke" is just as brain-dead as the position you're criticizing. The new snow white is probably bad, I haven't seen it and probably won't, but it's not just because it is too "woke". The way to get Disney (and others... Marvel looking at you) to fix making terrible movies is to just stop buying tickets to them. No matter how bourgeois leftist you think they are over there, nothing is ultimately more important to a company than the dollar.
Wokeness doesn't inherently destroy art. It's possible they could have made a thoughtful and engaging movie with no dwarfs or cgi dwarfs or dwarfs in the wrong places or girl boss-ness or whatever else people are complaining about. That they didn't I reflects more on the fear of taking risks than the inherent badness of wokeness or changing art for changing times. We all look back at blackface and cringe, but it was incredibly common and accepted for a long time. For god's sake they're just remaking one of their own films, if that doesn't smack of crass commercialism and fear of taking risks I don't know what does.
I don't really know enough about Australian speech laws. I probably wouldn't agree with them the way you describe them, but I get you're coming from a biased position so I won't comment much on that part.
I suspect you're understandably triggered by the word “woke”, (which is only in the episode title, not the editorial itself). You say "wokeness doesn't inherently destroy art". But if you replace "wokeness" in that sentence with "groupthink", "McCarthyism", "thought policing" or "witch hunting", it falls over. The fear of offending any dogma impedes art.
Thanks for the response. I don't in general disagree with you. I'm against dogma in its' many forms including the examples you give. I think I'm coming at this from the perspective of the opposite political problem as an American. We're full into the pendulum swing of the backlash to what you seem to be dealing with in Australia, and it's not any prettier on this side. I'm constantly listening to people see something as simple as a woman or minority main character and writing the whole thing off as "woke" and therefor bad.
You're probably right as to my "triggering" on the term woke, but I think it's justified as maybe it's not a fair critique of you, but definitely is of the general public who in my opinion see these overreaches on the left and swing to worshiping the dishonest grifter fucks like Christopher Rufo and their like as if their brand of identity politics is better and not worse.
:)
Critical Drinker
It occurred to me for a split second while listening to this hilarious Disney takedown that it gives a little too much credit to the 1937 version, which itself was heavily sanitised for family audiences…But I was too busy laughing and appreciating the general point. Great examples cited here on the difficulty of answering the Minns question.
Good point. I hadn't thought of this
Is that "sanitised" allegation justified by any evidence? Snow White and other Disney movies were intended for children in the interwar years when people wanted beautiful, happy, escapist and magical stories that gave children something to feel good about and believe in.
I was thinking of the stark differences between the German fairy tale and Disney's 1937 Snow White. One could argue though that: (1) that the process of "sanitisation" (in particular, removing violent elements) began long before Walt Disney and even dates back to the Grimm brothers own self-editing; (2) that clearly these modifications were warranted for a film produced in the 1930s for, as you say, a family audience; (3) Walt Disney's inspiration for the 1937 film was primarily from a silent a silent film produced in 1916 and this version had already eliminated violent elements. So, I suppose, understandably sanitised. Good point.
I wonder why they felt it necessary to remake/retell a sanitised version of this old fairytale in the first place.
What a disaster.. Can I borrow your brain Josh for 5mins, so I can articulate this to my woke friends who are cheering is on?
You don't need to, mate. Send them the free podcast link
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncomfortable-conversations-with-josh-szeps/id1002920114
Nah. I hate sending links. Then they will send a link that I wont listen too and on it goes. Gotta have a real conversation with people.
Ugh, this reminds me of what they did to the number "America" in the West Side Story remake. As you'll recall, the original song is a back-and-forth between Anita and Bernardo, with Bernard praising Puerto Rico over the US, and Anita shitting on PR in favor of America. She gets the line, "Puerto Rico, my heart's devotion, let it sink back in the ocean."
In the remake, Anita's lyrics have been santized to "Puerto Rico, you lovely island", which completely undercuts the point of the whole song. It satisifies the current need to validate people from that US territory, though, which to some is the priority. I myself think the original is hilarious, and that Anita and Bernardo both make good points about their respective homes, original and new, but gods forbid I should form my own opinion.
Good rant Josh. All good stuff you're saying there.